2 posts tagged “grassley six”
On December 23, 2007 Pastor Joseph Vaillancourt wrote the below denunciation of the six people involved in Ministry being investigated by Senator Charles Grassley as heretics. I personally think these Six are innocent of wrong doing legally; however I have been wrong before. I had to take some time on how to answer the Pastor. Thus directly below is the Pastor’s comment followed directly by my response.
Joseph Vaillancourt wrote:
Once a long time ago, in Europe shortly after the fall of the Roman Empire to Barbarians and Pagans. Europe was surronded by Muslims to the South and Pagans to the North. It was a drastic time, the Catholic church was a shameful organization only after money. Charlamagne (sorry if I spelled it wrong) managed to becaome king of a country which pretty much ruled all of Western Europe and included the lands of France and Germany. History now calls this empire the HOly Roman Empire manly because the Benzatines were losing a war to the Muslims...but thats besides the point.
I decided at 8 pm Sunday, to mention what the Emporer of the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE DID to greedy people who made money off of the gospel. AFter all he had the first and probably the only real attempt at Christian and State union. He was a submissive Christian and accepted doctrines, forced Mulsim nation to give religious freedom to Christians in their lands. He demanded those in power not rob blind the poor. In fact, some believe he and hid kingdom are represented in the symbolic kingdom of Camelot.
Well, in his day, Priest were often charging huge amounts of money to recieve blessings, education, and the like...he out lawed that. He foreced Nuns to not sleep around and go figure, he would well with 1500s' reformation of Martin Luther. He was a student of the Word of GOd...if ever, there was a Christian king similar to King David, it was he.
We've been discussing the Grassley 6 and the implications of what is happening as of late in regards to their apparent appearance of wrong doing in their finances. I made some strong statements but in the process, I had to ask, what would have Charlamagne had done in Grassley's place.
Well, I have to admit my research on this king is limited to what can be found. I made this connection, he would have not given the Grassley 6 as much freedom to say "no" to the enquiry into their finances. He would have held them accountable. If he found wrong doing each would face considerable penalties. More importantly, he would never allow some of their teachings to continue.
truly we live in an age when it is said, that church and state ought to be seperated...ok...oh! In ancient times, this was not the case. Are we better off with having the two seperated? Yes! Because I can only find in history one time when a king was powerful enough to keep the church from using him and yet humble enough to accept correction and maintain morality as best as he could. Government can not be trusted to lead the church - (example: the Church of England - lets not open this up! I must confess I like this church but see their weakness). However, in the same way, the church can not be trusted to rule a nation, because with absolute power Satan will currupt.
So, I like a more balance of shared power, civil authoritiest govern over law making, the people daily needs, defence, enforcement of the laws. The church governs over the daily spiritual needs of people and equally keeps the governement accountable. Scritpure tells us that Government has been given a sword by authority of GOD to enflict judgement.
I am not sure how to explain this better than I have...but, regardless of who Charlamagne is and I am sure the Catholic church sees him in a rose coloured picture of seeing him the best they can. Yet, let us realize, state has a role to play in ensuring churches remain humble with finances and accountability is the rule of the day.
Just a babbling thought.
Below is my rebuttal:
Pastor, Charlemagne was a virtuous King/Emperor for his day; however he was hardly the man you are painting a portrait of. For one thing, to solidify the power of his empire he made sure the Pope (he did not ask permission) anointed him Holy Roman Emperor.
Also since the days of a solid Roman bureaucratic infrastructure had long ceased to exist; Charlemagne strengthened the principle of Feudalism. That is Charlemagne continued the development a vassal system in which nobles of lower rank paid obeisance to a higher ranking noble and onward to the top dog Charlemagne himself. At the lowest rung were the serfs who paid obeisance to their Noble Lord. People became tied to the land almost to the degree of slaves to the nobility class of Feudalism. The only recourse the peasant class had was the intervention of the Roman Church. Then as today there was corruption and there was faithfulness, the corruption did not make the whole Church corrupt. It is man that corrupts power and so there were corrupt pockets within the Church.
Monastic Orders such as Benedictines and Franciscans (to name a few) came into existence to combat the pockets of the priesthood that degenerated into carnal pleasures. These monks lived by strict rules that are doubtfully observed on a wide scale today.
Back to Charlemagne: part of the way he shored up the linkage of feudal vassalage is that he travelled his Empire extensively. He did not hang out at a Capitol city a primary amount of his time. Each lower vassal he visited it was required that they service the Royal entourage with food, blessings, etc out of the vassal’s pocket. Thus Charlemagne maintained a tight nit empire that would not survive him in expanse because later rulers were less vigorous.
Frankly if the Grassley Six’s teaching were around in Charlemagne’s day, the Emperor would have made it the law of the land because prosperity teaching reaches beyond a clerical/lay relationship. It would have encouraged a prosperity that would have enriched Charlemagne via his vassal tours keeping the Holy Roman Empire as an entity. It would have been the greedy side of the Roman Church’s day that would have tried to put a Grassley Six group out of commission because it would have threatened the Roman Church’s influence over both the peasantry and the nobility. Thus poverty became emphasized as humility.
Although I do not agree with all the teachings or maybe I should say the teachings that have led human followers rather than god followers to exchange holy prosperity for material prosperity; I regard most the “Faith” teachings of the Grassley Six to be Bible centered. That which I find disagreement with is no more heretical than a Roman Catholic believing that the Communion Elements are the actual Body and Blood of Christ or the Protestant belief that the Communion Elements are symbols of the Body and Blood of Christ.
However Pastor if indeed it is discovered that Ministers such as the Grassley Six used donated money for personal conspicuous consumption rather than the purpose of donation, then shame should be pronounced until hubris leaves and repentance turns the soul the other direction because of a contrite hearty. If a salary is commensurate with the level of work of other non-profit organizations, that salary may be used as legally and morally to fit a personal disposition. I have no problem with that and those that do are operating under jealousy.
I wonder why Senator Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) is asking for financial records from a targeted group of Ministries beyond the scope of what is requested by the IRS. In Washington DC Grassley, a member of the Senate Finance Committee is investigating what has become known as the Grassley Six:
Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Benny Hinn, Creflo and Taffi Dollar, Bishop Eddie Long, Joyce and David Meyer, and Randy and Paula White.
I would get the picture if the Democratic Party controlled Committee was pushing for the investigation because the (nearly) Godless Left does not appreciate strong Biblical value minded Christians to be an influence in politics.
Do notice I said Christians, apparently it is politically correct for Mohammedan’s to spout politics and retain their 501(c)3 non-profit donation status.
Anyway Senator Grassley definitely is a Slanted Right Conservative; therefore I have to believe he has acquired some information on the Grassley Six. The information must not be the smoking gun that has convinced Grassley to investigate financial abuse of these Ministries. I did see an MSM piece on Benny Hinn photo-documenting a lavish lifestyle which the MSM piece was financed by Hinn’s 501(c)3 Ministry. I do recall the network that did the piece rudely harassed Hinn in public because Hinn would never agree to an interview. The program would show public questioning Hinn and trap him into answers that there was no way Hinn was prepared to answer. Hinn would give off the top his mind answers and if it did not jive with documented information the program already had, a clip would follow with facts and figures staining Hinn’s reputation.
I do understand the motivation behind the Slanted Left MSM. These six Ministers that have gained the appellation of the Grassley Six are all Ministers that do way more than preach prosperity. These are Faith people who believe in Divine Healing and Divine Intervention via the Biblical Gifts of the Spirit. This is a practice that many Christians antagonistic to this literal form of Faith have labeled heresy. What better way to put a dent into faith then to show these Ministers as liars or living the high life on non-profit tax deductable donations.
I must give Grassley credit though. If the Grassley six are living lavishly on Ministry funds rather than the salary from the Ministry coupled with investments, then there is a taint on the image of Christ. That would invalidate that whole teaching of faith, healing, miracles and prosperity to many who have followed this movement for years.
Can you tell I am one of those followers? The Bible is the Bible and it is true rather or not a few Ministers treated their charitable donations as their personal funds. I still believe in the power of God for all the Faith movement teachings because it is taken directly from the Bible; however I do believe some have become too engulfed in materialism and comfort rather than setting an example of Kingdom of God living that Jesus preached.
I pray Grassley’s investigation exonerates the Grassley Six of any wrong doing. Would that not slap the accusers on the Left? If or there is any wrong doing revealed I pray it is in ethics not in the rule of law. That way many good men and women of God can reassess what is personal money or what is Ministry money and still be a benefit for the Kingdom of God.
Now one thing that is a pet peeve of mine is this ludicrous infringement the government has made for Christian Ministries to be a Godly influence in elections. If a Ministry is discerned to be making public endorsements of candidates the IRS will swoop down and remove their 501(c)3 status. Thus it is a hinky way allowing free speech yet punishing the life blood of a Ministries existence.
I don’t know how Kenneth Copeland swung it be he had Mike Huckabee on his weekly show. I did not have the chance to watch the TV programming; however I intend to catch it on the Internet. Copeland’s Believer’s Voice of Victory broadcasts can be seen at the Kenneth Copeland Website. The cool thing I liked about Baptist Minister and Presidential Candidate Huckabee is that he is taking a public stand with the Copelands as Grassley’s investigation proceeds. This is interesting for Baptists and Pentecostal/Charismatic Christian do not see eye to eye on many theological issues. That means Huckabee is willing to take a political hit while his poll numbers are actually rising. I have heard some bad things about Huckabee ethics wise when he was Governor of Arkansas; however it takes a man to stand tall when a friend is under a Senate investigation.
I will close with this thought. It is wrong to impose Freedom of Speech restriction on Christian Ministries under the delusion that the Constitution’s First Amendment proclaims there is a separation of Church and State. There is NO SUCH LANGUAGE in the First Amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Notice the First Amendment says that Congress will make no law respecting an establishment of a religion (i.e. No State Church) or the prohibiting the free exercise thereof (i.e. the Federal Government cannot prohibit the free exercise of religion). The Federal Government is prohibiting the free exercise of religion when the IRS is used as a tool to keep various Christian denominations from taking political stands.
The whole so-called “Separation of Church and State” concept comes from a letter delivered by President Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Church using that phrase.
HELLO the letter is not part of the Constitution of the United States of America.
