Ellie Defends the Left and Homosexuality
Below are a couple of comments left by Ellie (of Vox social network) concerning one of my many cross posts: “The Immorality of Homosexuality.”
Thank you for the link, I will have a look.
With all due respect, the parades are not proof of anything. It makes me sad (and a bit crazy, to be honest with you) that we liberals and secularists are painted as perverts. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I, like many liberals, am pro-military, and pro-authority.
It makes me sick to see thongs in public. I don't want to see people's private parts - whether someone's gay or straight. But gays don't have a monopoly on perversion - not at all. It's the bad stereotype of gay parades that makes all sorts feel free to act like they're porn stars. My gay friends hate it even more than I do. They are perfectly proper citizens.
I'm not touching the Bible - I have no interest in reinterpreting it. I respect other's wishes, I just wish you guys would speak to us liberals before you judge us.
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Way2K, are you kidding me? Craigslist? That is not a scientifc study.
The article says, "One study says this...and one study says that....". They are not mentioning what studies they refer to. That must be convenient to say the study is out there in the ether but to not actually reference which study it is.
Here is an example of a scientific study:
A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men
And to explain why such published studies are important references, here is my favorite scientist discussing evolution vs creationism.
Thank you for listening to me rant, I can't think of a better thing than for our polarized citizens to talk to one another.
So because a person finds some statistics and posts them to a Craig's List link, the statistics are invalid? Hmm...
Besides it was only a cursory Google search that I found this link. I did not realize you were going to use the statistics as a scientific reference. Probably Googling those statistics will lead to the origination.
I do appreciate genial dialogue as opposed to the epithets that I receive for my stand with Christian morality.
Incidentally, contrary to probably most of my fellow Conservatives (and probably a significant portion of my fellow Christian Right brethren) I am not closed minded about many Slanted Left concepts. However, I do filter everything through the Bible as it is viewed via Charismatic, Pentecostal and Word of Faith views. I am also aware that many Christians both toward the Left (i.e. more relativist than Biblical) and toward the Right (intolerant Protestant traditional view points often equated with fundamentalism) would consider me archaic (Left) or heretical (Right). Nonetheless, the Bible is everything for me.
In saying that I have to say there is a good argument for both Socialism and Capitalism in the New Testament:
· Socialism – Acts 2:40-47.
· Capitalism – Matthew 13:44-52; 25:14-29.
I personally could find more of the Scripture supporting Capitalism than Socialism but the point is both concepts are in the New Testament. I also realize that theologians would not view these Scriptures in economic terms; rather the Biblical scholar or student would find the spiritual Truth that is the direct meaning. Nonetheless, the spiritual Truth may be the point; however the principle can be surmised.
There is evil in Socialism. When all the altruistic good of the collective is looked at through who decides what is the greater good for the collective, then abuse begins to occur. Hence Socialism too often leads to godless authoritarian Communism in which the one human (or ruling human group) decides the good for the many.
There is evil in Capitalism. When the individual (or the influential group of wealth) places greedy gain to the detriment of the mass of individuals then people are exploited for the benefit of a few.
The key for either the Socialist Left or the Capitalist Right to be beneficial for humanity is the Golden Rule: Do to others as you would have them do to you. Or love humanity as God loved humanity enough to give His one and only Son, that all humanity may have the God-Kind (Zoe) life. I am ashamed to say too many Christians fall short of the Christian ideal which does include me. I do have a tendency to get steamed over social issues like homosexuality and abortion because they definitely are not in line with the Bible. I become so steamed that I sometimes fall into the ditch of harshness.
So Ellie the biggest problem I have with the Left and alternate lifestyles is the anti-Biblical Christian path they tend to take.
Ellie now I will try the “scientific” data to which you refer.
The link to the research of Dr. Simon LeVay is fascinating stuff. LeVay’s hypothalamic studies have led to the speculation of a “gay gene.” LeVay’s thinking seems to be if there is a “gay gene” than the lifestyle of homosexuality is a normal biological part of human life.
It is the old “genetics versus environment” argument with those believing homosexuality developing due to one’s social environment is a learned lifestyle and thus reversible and not normal.
As you can expect the “science” that is in the tank to validate homosexuality has been initially excited about LeVay’s research. And those scientists (although a minority) who are Christian or social traditionalists seem to be big on proving the environmental hypothesis.
When it has looked like LeVay and/or other like minded scientists was very close to identifying a “gay gene” the social traditionalists are quick to point out it has not been proven. (SA this narth.com article) Then someone woke up among the homosexual activists. If homosexual friendly LeVay indeed discovers a “gay gene” proving biology over environment, then heterosexual parents might take advantage with a little genetic social engineering to remove any possibility of a “gay gene” to exist via abortion or other methods. This would effectively bring the modern termination of homosexuals as their so-called genetic brethren (and sistren) would slowly decrease.
Of course the American Psychiatric Association admits there is no “gay gene”. Many on the Right believe this APA reversal was due to regain a better reputation of objectivity. I believe the APA reversal was due to the headaches that genetic engineering would cause for the homosexual community.
Let me end by saying that I do appreciate dialogue without profanity. My experience is that my intransient stand with the Bible irritates the Slanted Left, homosexual activists, the pro-choice crowd and other such ideologies. That is okay as long as the Left understands that their views are often offensive to me. But hey, we all live in America. We all have Constitutional Rights of Free Speech as long as it does not cause immediate harm (e.g. falsely yelling fire in crowded area).
Thanks for your time Ellie.
Comments
I wasn't sure where to comment, LOL!
Well I haven't had time to read this completely, but I will and I hope you don't mind if I respond some time this week.
You don't deserve to be cursed at - you are being fair and reasonable in your allowing me to comment. I appreciate that.
I do think that the frequent posting of anti-gay sentiment coupled with semi-pornographic pictures is unfair to many in the gay community who do not practice such things. You are perfectly within your rights to post why homosexuality is not something you agree with, but I guarantee you that the semi-porn is an unfair image.
Anyway, more later. Sorry I'm moving at the speed of a snail. :)
Take your time Ellie, its just blogging.
:-)
Hi again Way2K :)
I find your title interesting. Because it does not really represent what I'm doing here. I actually am not defending homosexuality nor am I defending the left. I am not saying that I wouldn't at some point, but your blog title misses my point completely.
That's the biggest trouble with the left and the right on Vox - we are missing each other's messages! Please try to understand my final point.
1. Homosexuality: the debate on genes vs enviromnent is interesting, but not valid to what I am saying. Regardless of which it may be, my point is this: until you can show me proof that the vast majority of gays are perverts, it is completely offensive that you would show perverted S&M photos and spew language about homosexuality in the title.
From what I can tell, you are a vastly kind and intelligent man. Forget about the post itself - can you please consider refraining from posting photos and headlines which imply that all gays are perverts? That is my point.
Regarding abortion: this is an important point. No normal human being is pro-abortion. Anyone who thinks that killing infants is a good thing should be catapulted to Mars.
Please read the following comment I made in regards to abortion. I am very, very sorry for the length of this, but it is important.
We pro-choicers are not pro-abortion. (Notice no screaming, no caps-lock, no curses, etc). We just don't believe that changing the laws will prevent abortion.
So you get your piece of paper making abortion illegal. Do you really think that will prevent abortions? The doctors will just go underground and will be seen as heroes. Many authorities will probably look the other way. Heck, I bet they could still advertiste right with a sign right outside the clinic with no repercussions.
There was a story on NPR narrated by a woman who had an illegal abortion. She did not sneak in some back door - she was in a busy waiting room with many other women waiting for abortions just like a busy ER clinic. It was a popular place.
In college I volunteered for a women's care center - one of the nurses worked in an abortion clinic. When a woman came in for an abortion, she was required to have a counselling session. They would tell the woman, look - we know you're scared, but we can help you. What do you need - money? Health care? Housing? We'll give you it. We'll help you through every step of the process and we'll help you find an adopter for your baby if that's what you want.
Don't you think it's better to head them off at the pass? Scared pregnant women are more likely to trust a legal abortion clinic than someone who is going to judge them for thinking of an abortion.
So here's the question: are you really wanting to save babies? Are you sure that's what your motivation is? Because a religion that opposes birth control sure seems suspicious to me.
In other words, Way2K, I think there has been a serious misunderstanding about what the left stands for. I also don't think that the gay community is being understood.
Again, most of us are pro-military, pro-authority. Also pro-birth control and pro-tradition (i.e. Christmas trees and In God We Trust on dollar bills is just fine with us). Please talk to us before you judge. Clarification is everything.
Thanks so much for letting me comment. Feel free to tell me if I've misunderstood anything you've said.
Hi Mad Jewess.
I am interested in what you're saying - but I would appreciate examples so I'd have something specfic to respond to.
ps Nice list I made, right? There's a 1. and nothing else. Sorry 'bout that.
also - I did not name the person with whom I had the abortion conversation, not to be deceptive but out of basic respect for privacy. I did not want to come across as cryptic.
At any rate the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is perverted. That is good enough for me.
Here is an example of perversion that is no explicit to homosexuals but is very offensive to Christians: http://a4.vox.com/6a00cdf3a9bf0ecb8f011016a52744860d-pi
The argument that abortion should be legal because women who want to kill their babies in the name of birth control will go to back alley abortionists is kind of lame. If the Abortion clinics would indeed be intake clinics for the purpose of adoption would be great. But that is not the case. The purpose of an abortion clinic is to kill unborn babies for profit and to assuage the social and economic consequences of the lack of protection are just plain birth control.
You do realize that most women who get an abortion is not the result of rape, incest or other tragedies, right? A huge percentage of abortions are performed as a means of birth control.
Hence to equate pro-choice as anti-abortion does not make any sense. Pro-choice is pro-abortion. Certainly there will be a number of gals seeking the "back alley" abortion if baby killing is illegal; however statistics show that the number of abortions is way smaller when women and men are held accountable for their decisions of not thinking about how they had sex.
I would certainly like to read about the percentages of Liberals that are pro-military and pro-Christian as in not showing concern about public Christian mottos such as "in God we trust."
;) Hi again -
Re: the abortion issue - I would be curious to know where a poverty-stricken pregnant woman could go for food, money or other support if the right were in charge. So far as I can see the abortion clinics are the primary places that offer pregnant women some help - I'm sure there may be some churches that offer that but I would love to see some solid examples from you.
I'm not at all defending the act of abortion - I'm simply saying that we also need to find a way to help women who are pregnant and who do feel panicked. To blithely state that every woman who considers and aboriton is evil is just silly - especially coming from a gender who cannot know what it's like to suddenly discover that you are carrying a living human being inside of you.
The biggest problem the Right has is that they not only preach pro-life but they also are against birth control. Good luck with that. A condom is not a baby. An unfertilized egg is not a baby. A single sperm is not a baby. If the Right wants to keep women at risk for unwanted pregnancies they will never win the pro-life rights they want.
I guess the question you should ask yourself about your homosexual posts is this: what are you accomplishing by posting photos of perversion? Quite frankly I usually assume the author of the post likes them himself - I don't picture you as that kind of person. But I would never allow those nasty photos on my blog - they're disgusting. I prefer civil discourse.
I'll state again that you're a perfectly decent fellow, and I am glad to continue this converstaion for a long as you wish. Or you can tell me to buzz off, LOL. Either way, thank you for listening. :)
As to help for the necessities of life in keeping a baby. I am with you. Something definitely needs to be supportive. As I suggested, an abortion/murder clinic can transform into an adoption/life clinic and probably be profitable. I assuming that abortion doctors are in it for the money. So change the paradigm.
As to many on the Right being against birth control, that is sadly true. I would not say it is a majority. I would even be surprised if it was 50/50. Anyway do you seriously think that if it was left (oops I meant if it was up ) to a State decide abortion issues, do you think birth control would be any more limited than the present? I sure don't.
As to posting pictures showing what a homosexual lifestyle is about, it should shock heterosexuals what a homosexual practice looks like. It is perverse.
I also appreciate the even handed dialogue.
I absolutely agree with you Ellie. Sadly, some people assume that if you are "pro-choice", you automatically think that everybody should have an abortion. Not so. I know that in general, I am pro-choice but when it comes to MY choice - I chose life.
Abortion clinics do NOT only provide abortions. In fact, many of them are the sole providers of women's health services like annual pap smears, birth control and STD treatments.
Abortion is NOT the problem - it is a SYMPTOM. It is a symptom a much larger and pervasive issue in this world. Banning it will do nothing to the numbers - it just forces the act into unsafe back-allies. Banning abortion is sort of like putting a bandage on an AIDS lesion and pretending you have cured AIDS.
If you want to lower the number of abortions you have to give women the tools and opportunity to make the choice. You have solve issues of the oppressive patriarchy. You have to solve domestic violence. You have to work to give women (and men) adequate maternity and paternity leave. You have work to make sure that working mothers are treated fairly and equal to childless women and all men. You have to work to make sure that women have OPTIONS. Please note the "s" at the end of options - that means more than simple adoption.
NOW...as for homosexuality - Way2k, you quoted a passage from Leviticus. IT specifically denotes a gender, ie Men. So does that mean female homosexuality is acceptable? After all, Leviticus is VERY gender specific throughout the book. Also, do you follow all of the other laws in Leviticus? FYI - in the same book that declares homosexuality and abomination, the Eagle is declared an abomination. Have you written to the congress and started a movement to have an "abomination" removed as our national symbol?
Katie I was wondering when my favorite liberal would show up in this discussion.
:-)
As to your thoughts on abortion, my response is pretty much the same as my last response to Ellie.
As to Biblical Scripture on homosexuality:
I think you are splitting hairs too much to attempt to shoot holes into Biblical Morality. Simple logic would surmise if male homosexuality is ungodly then female homosexuality would also be ungodly.
Nonetheless, if you are looking for specificity:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. [i.e. there is a natural order such as male and female for procreation] 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. ( Emphasis is mine. Roman 1:18-27 NKJV)
Note verse 27.
Well I don't know the actual statistics, do you? By your reasoning I could guess that 90 percent of conservatives are misogynous. But like you, I do not have enough regular communication with those on the opposing political party to make that call. My judgement of them is insulting - and I would hope that you as well would realize that guessing statistics especially on a group of people you don't work with regularly is pretty outrageous.
If you were a nurse working in a women's clinic (I'm including male nurses - my brother in law is one), you would have a much more valid guess. But let's not quote statistics until we have either a study or we're in a field where we can.
Unless you're working closely with the gay community, it's truly rude to post porn photos to represent "gays" or "homosexuals".
You have every right to your opinion about them, and to speak how you feel the Bible speaks on them - but please, mixing Bible quotes with pornographic photos is just terrible. Especially when we are, after all, talking about human beings with emotions and who are already the target of violence and hate.
Sorry if this comment sounds abrupt, I am rushed today. :)
Yeah my oldest daughter calls me a mysogynous all the time. So I kind of pour it on for her for I enjoy the feminist self-righteousness she delivers to me. Ellie she definitely would cheer you on. Not because of your acceptance of alternative lifestyles but because you are politely stating your point with the force of female dignity.
LOL
Anyway ... The photos in my opinion were less pornagraphic than shocking. I could have shown some truly sickening homosexual photos from the Folsom-East Street party in NYC. I would sorely be surprised if VOX would not have voiced the horrofic practices of public homosexuality in the raw was not a violation of the terms of usage.
For me the photo of the two homosexual dudes smooching after illicit wedlock was just as horrorific as the public perversity of Folsom Street East.
People need to know how shocking aberrant homosexual behavior is. Biblical Scripture views it as shocking as well; thus to rebuke homosexual acts it is appropriate to shine the light of the Gospel on the darkness of homosexual activity.
Ha well thank you for the compliment and your daughter sounds like a lovely person. Just for the record I certainly not mean to call you misogynous, just pointing out that my judgement cannot be correct if I don't spend time around Republicans (or know statistics).
I do think that the bondage shown in the photo was a bit over the top, but not against Vox policy (I haven't looked at their policies in general) - I guess what I'm saying is why post photos that you find disgusting? I was posting shocking photos of oiled birds until I realized it was crass and upset my readers.
I think of my blog as "my house" and I try to keep it controversial but also pleasant - not that it's any of my business what you post on your blog, just a thought. :)
Kelley's group released a study that showed socioeconomic factors have more positive effect on reducing abortions than prohibitive laws. The progressive agenda, including health reform, education, and reducing poverty, can achieve more for the pro-life agenda than the Bush-style siege tactics.
I'm pleased with Obama working with pro-life advocates who are practical about achieving their goals.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/the-new-pro-lifer_b_211877.html
The statistics that most abortions are elective, used as birth control, rather than emergency operations, should give us hope that we can succeed in reducing the number of abortions by giving women better alternatives, better education about responsible sexual activity, and better support in proactive health services.
But there will always be emergency cases. Most people agree that there are legitimate exceptions to a complete prohibition. Only 4% of Americans say that abortion must never be permitted regardless of the circumstances (according to a 2007 CBS poll).
I believe there are many edge cases that should be permitted for the health of the mother. We can't predict the nature of all such cases, so I am in favor of keeping abortion safe, legal, and rare. I would certainly rather the decision be made by the mother, with input from the father, her doctor, and her church/spiritual counsel, instead of by some legislator.
Bill I agree with rare. It took the Court to legislate abortion. It will take some kind of legislation to make abortion rare. Unfortunately that legislation will have to receive the 'ok' from the Courts.
I am 100% against abortion as birth control. Adoption is always better than murder. I also agree that there are extenuating circumstances for a legal abortion to occur. This is especially the case in saving the mother's life. I am willing to be convinced about rape but in the back of my spirit that seems like the murder of an innocent child who had no choice in its circumstances. The rape thing is the only abortion issue that I waver back and forth on.
The study by Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good concluded that prohibition had little or no effect on reducing abortions, whereas social programs had a large effect. That was really interesting.
Ellie, you can justify wicked behavior until the cows come home, but you 2, will face death, as ALL of us will have to face our maker, and all of us will face death. Thats the way life is. The right thing to do, if you have 'tolerance' is to love the person without condoning abominations.
Homosexuality and bestiality
Lev 18:22-29 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
This "Joseph Francis" left a nonsensical comment followed by a link to generic viagra. Joseph Francis profile shows he became a Vox member today on December 17. This would indicate this is slick spam.
I suspect "Joseph Francis will be deleted as a member for rules violations hence I am deleting his comment and not providing a follow-up link to a profile that is the work of spam.
Everyone born on this world as homosexuals. Because they know about their body parts very well than the opposite sex and they know which parts are pleasurable ones.
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